Seeing Differently, and More Graciously

Today the Jacobsen family is celebrating Thanksgiving. Our kids and grandkids went elsewhere yesterday to other celebrations, so they are all coming over today for turkey and hanging out. Sara and I have so much to be thankful for this year and we are overwhelmed with gratitude at all that God has done in our lives. We love him and each other more each day.

So while I take a break and most others re out shopping today, let me tie up these loose ends from the recent election discussion on this blog. Though I still like some of the language our new President-elect is using about working together and getting rid of government programs that don’t work, I’m still concerned about a cabinet he is appointing that is recycled Clinton-era politicians. He has some outside that box, but not near enough for me. I’ll be interested to see how all of this pans out.

The reason I posted a bit of my political thinking on this blog was in hopes of doing the very thing these two letters I received recently indicate. I hope it produced this kind of fruit in others as well. And please don’t jump to the conclusion that all of those who voted for McCain did it out of irrational fears, but that’s not my point of view or the writers of these letters. They simply illustrate our tell our political positions might be.

I meant to write last week & congratulate you on your bravery in saying publicly that you voted for Obama! I’m not very political, but I was glad he won – he seemed to be the one with more compassion, inclusiveness, and a larger view of the world & America’s place in it. I know the world has unreasonable expectations for him. I’m just hoping he can begin to move our country in a better direction.

I have a very dear friend, who is a conservative Republican Christian. She tried to get me into political discussions before the election, assuming that I would agree with her. I sidestepped the discussions because I didn’t agree and I knew it could potentially cause a rift in our relationship due to her extreme views & certainty that hers was the proper Christian position. I had hoped that with the election over, she would turn her attention to other things. I was surprised to find that since the election, she has posted many times on her blog (which I read just to keep up with her life) what has to be called rants against Obama. She has expressed her great fear in many different ways, all of them very condemning and extreme. We normally get together every week or two for coffee, but I’m not sorry that we have been unable to the last few weeks. It really makes it hard to have a conversation when the other person is so steeped in their own viewpoint they can’t see or hear the reasons for yours.

I find it interesting that she is so afraid. The Christian right has really whipped up the emotions this time around. It sort of reminds me of the days of George Wallace, when many ‘good Christian people’ were rabidly racial, or the early days of this country when ‘good Christian people’ felt that African-Americans were less than human. I think it’s another instance of the “church”‘s stance being off the mark. The amount of fear makes me think of the scripture “Perfect love casts out fear”.

In thinking about the required conformity within the institutions, I think that a large part of the issue is control. Without being told how to think, vote, dress, etc., a lot of people feel out of control. It’s just too much freedom, and they are too afraid of messing up & getting zapped by their angry god. That carries over into politics as well – they want to be in control, to have everyone agree with them. If you don’t, you must be unGodly.

I also think that many of those in control of the institutions, whether they are aware of it or not, use that fear to keep control of their congregations. Fear is a powerful motivator. For me, the reaction that the Christian right is having to Mr. Obama is telling. It isn’t rational, or spiritual, it’s totally emotional and fear-fed, which doesn’t speak well for where it is coming from at all.

Anyway, I mostly just wanted to say thanks for being open & honest & unafraid!

And then this:

Isn’t it amazing how loving, godly, holy, and peace-loving saints can throw down the gloves and become raving lunatics when it comes to politics? I respect you for your courage and honesty, in sharing your convictions. You probably knew that some would react adversely to your decision and you shared your opinion anyway. I felt that you were very gracious in how you presented your opinions. You know voting a canditate from the “D” party is as close one can come to denying Christ without actually denying him.

I voted for John McCain. Yet, I respect your right to vote for whom you choose. In fact based upon the authority of the scriptures, you did not lose your salvation and I am at liberty to call you brother and enjoy fellowship with you. I have the fortune or misfortune of living in one of the bastions of Evangelical Christianity–Virgina Beach, Virginia. I work with a good number of professing believers. I notice that leading up to the election that many brethren seemed to despair over the idea of a Barack Obama presidency. The only thing holding him back from revealing himself as the Anti-Christ was that the rapture had not taken place(said tongue-in-cheek). You know what I am talking about. My thoughts were even if Barack Obama were elected as president, God is still on the throne.

Well, God has spoken and Barack Obama will be President of the United States on January 20, 2009. Because of the fear that seems to be resonating amongst many believers, I decide to start a discussion thread at a Christian website. My topic was “Could a Barack Obama Presidency be a Blessing in Disguise for American Evangelicals?”. Needless to say it had 116 replies over the course of about a week. I premised it with the fact that I was supporting John Mcain and that I felt that many brethren were getting caught up in the political mess. They were losing sight of the fact that Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour transcends any worldly election. He who loves us more than we can truly imagine is in control of the universe. If He is able to fulfill his will with men such as Nebuchanezzar, the Pharoahs, the Caesars, and the many ungodly men who have ruled nations through out history. He can accomplish his will with Messiah Obama (again, only kidding).

Accept my feeble attempt at encouraging you and keep up the good work as the Apostle to the relationaly challenged. I of course am speaking for myself.

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36 Comments
  1. Pamela November 28, 2008 at 11:48 am

    I do appreciate those that try to have the discourse like happened on this blog. Wayne tried to explain his perspective and point of reference. I will give him kudos for that.

    I agree that true followers should be able to discuss differences in love. The one thing sadly present in the discourse was a lot of amazing rage. I think it is this rage that caused many to either retreat (like myself) or for way too many fight like cats and dogs. It would have been nice to have discourse on the issues and the person’s perspective. In elections past this was the case with people that I knew. That changed with this election season which was really sad. It had basically removed the love and interest that I have in politics. I was reared in the DC area. The national political scene was my local news growing up. That pretty much died during this election season. I doubt if I will ever discuss these issues with people, especially Christians, that I disagree with. In times past when I heard other views it would help me see their point of reference or expand my view on issues. It may sound childish to some but at this point the interest in discussing political issues no longer exists for me. I will focus on other things where differences can be discussed with some kind of rational passion.

    I do have a sincere question. I’m not trying to be mean about this. I’m not inferring God’s choice in the election because I just don’t believe in that concept at all. I sincerely want to know how people can say that God chooses our leaders in the US when God is not in the voting booth making the decision on how to pull the lever or mark their ballots? In every election we decided who to vote for using whatever plumb-line we choose to use in the selection process. God gave us that freedom to make choices. He does not force us to do anything. He leads us and we decide whether we will yield to Him or not. Not every decision made in life is what God wants. If that was the case there would be no one lost. All would be saved which is clearly His intent in the Scriptures. I have yet to hear anyone answer this according to Scripture. How does one come to the conclusion that everything that happens is God?

  2. Pamela November 28, 2008 at 11:57 am

    I hit Say It too soon.

    I meant to include that the Bible says to pray for those that are over us that we may live a quiet and peaceful life. I think that is in 1 Timothy. When that was written the leaders were not walking with God. So it is possible to see good things regardless of the religious persuasion of the leader or the lack thereof.

    I am praying that Obama will use wisdom in his decisions.

  3. kent November 28, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    this has become a common response I make to people who start in on all the things that are now going to happen (based upon what they are reading and hearing coming from conservative news and radio and on blogs) with our nation and the world since Obama has become President Elect.

    take note of all the fearful future tripping being spread around by such talk and articles and as we go through the next four or eight years it would be interesting to also take note of how many of them actually happen and how many of them don’t. I will pray for our leaders because it is a wise thing to do….but I don’t let such articles guide me.

  4. Rich November 28, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    I heard a discussion last week on NPR about people’s driving habits during the holidays and how we are so quick to pigeon-hole people when they make a mistake in their cars. When somebody cuts us off in traffic, some of us want to catch up to that person so we can get a glimpse of just what type of person would do such an irresponsible thing. After we get a visual picture of the bad driver, we then transfer our opinions to other drivers who are that gender, color, age, haircolor…or who has the same bumper sticker on their car as the person who once cut us off. When someone else makes a mistake, they are ‘nuts’, when we make a mistake, we usually have a good reason.

    I live in a neighborhood loaded with other Jesus believers, two pastors from my church within 5 houses of me, several pastors from other churches, many church goers…and many of us know each other…we also know those who aren’t ‘church goers’. For THAT very reason, for the first time in my life, I put up a political sign in my yard showing support for a certain presidential candidate. Within days of showing my support with that lawn sign I had several neighbors, ‘church goers’ and ‘non-church goers’ stop to disuss politics in the front yard. Every conversation was hopeful and grace filled, but those conversations were only initiated by people who supported the same candidate…nobody struck up a conversation with me who did not support the same candidate as I did. I found something in common with folks I’ve never talked with before (mostly people I don’t know as christians). We talked about things we had in common and WHY we were voting for the person we were voting for. I was able to share with them how my heart has been softened and my mind has been changed over the past few years.

    If any of my ‘non believing’ neighbors were reluctant to embrace Jesus because they perceived christian’s as ‘harsh, unthinking, moral majority, right wingers’, I hope our conversations caused them to think again. MAYBE if I drive thoughfully enough, one of my neighbors might hurry to catch up and see Who is behind the wheel :>)

  5. Pamela November 28, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    I do appreciate those that try to have the discourse like happened on this blog. Wayne tried to explain his perspective and point of reference. I will give him kudos for that.

    I agree that true followers should be able to discuss differences in love. The one thing sadly present in the discourse was a lot of amazing rage. I think it is this rage that caused many to either retreat (like myself) or for way too many fight like cats and dogs. It would have been nice to have discourse on the issues and the person’s perspective. In elections past this was the case with people that I knew. That changed with this election season which was really sad. It had basically removed the love and interest that I have in politics. I was reared in the DC area. The national political scene was my local news growing up. That pretty much died during this election season. I doubt if I will ever discuss these issues with people, especially Christians, that I disagree with. In times past when I heard other views it would help me see their point of reference or expand my view on issues. It may sound childish to some but at this point the interest in discussing political issues no longer exists for me. I will focus on other things where differences can be discussed with some kind of rational passion.

    I do have a sincere question. I’m not trying to be mean about this. I’m not inferring God’s choice in the election because I just don’t believe in that concept at all. I sincerely want to know how people can say that God chooses our leaders in the US when God is not in the voting booth making the decision on how to pull the lever or mark their ballots? In every election we decided who to vote for using whatever plumb-line we choose to use in the selection process. God gave us that freedom to make choices. He does not force us to do anything. He leads us and we decide whether we will yield to Him or not. Not every decision made in life is what God wants. If that was the case there would be no one lost. All would be saved which is clearly His intent in the Scriptures. I have yet to hear anyone answer this according to Scripture. How does one come to the conclusion that everything that happens is God?

  6. Pamela November 28, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    I hit Say It too soon.

    I meant to include that the Bible says to pray for those that are over us that we may live a quiet and peaceful life. I think that is in 1 Timothy. When that was written the leaders were not walking with God. So it is possible to see good things regardless of the religious persuasion of the leader or the lack thereof.

    I am praying that Obama will use wisdom in his decisions.

  7. David William Edwards November 28, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    Can anyone say “Y2K”? The fear mongering was unbelievable. I knew of many Christians that seemed to be hoping terrible things would happen in order to hasten the coming of the Lord. Please forgive us!

    David William Edwards

  8. Sara November 28, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    I thought both those letters were very well written. Satan loves nothing better than to see Christians divided…especially when it comes to the election of our nations highest office.

    Enjoy your blog. Thank you for the open minded discussions and not promoting the fear surrounding this election.

    Sara

  9. kent November 28, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    this has become a common response I make to people who start in on all the things that are now going to happen (based upon what they are reading and hearing coming from conservative news and radio and on blogs) with our nation and the world since Obama has become President Elect.

    take note of all the fearful future tripping being spread around by such talk and articles and as we go through the next four or eight years it would be interesting to also take note of how many of them actually happen and how many of them don’t. I will pray for our leaders because it is a wise thing to do….but I don’t let such articles guide me.

  10. Rich November 28, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    I heard a discussion last week on NPR about people’s driving habits during the holidays and how we are so quick to pigeon-hole people when they make a mistake in their cars. When somebody cuts us off in traffic, some of us want to catch up to that person so we can get a glimpse of just what type of person would do such an irresponsible thing. After we get a visual picture of the bad driver, we then transfer our opinions to other drivers who are that gender, color, age, haircolor…or who has the same bumper sticker on their car as the person who once cut us off. When someone else makes a mistake, they are ‘nuts’, when we make a mistake, we usually have a good reason.

    I live in a neighborhood loaded with other Jesus believers, two pastors from my church within 5 houses of me, several pastors from other churches, many church goers…and many of us know each other…we also know those who aren’t ‘church goers’. For THAT very reason, for the first time in my life, I put up a political sign in my yard showing support for a certain presidential candidate. Within days of showing my support with that lawn sign I had several neighbors, ‘church goers’ and ‘non-church goers’ stop to disuss politics in the front yard. Every conversation was hopeful and grace filled, but those conversations were only initiated by people who supported the same candidate…nobody struck up a conversation with me who did not support the same candidate as I did. I found something in common with folks I’ve never talked with before (mostly people I don’t know as christians). We talked about things we had in common and WHY we were voting for the person we were voting for. I was able to share with them how my heart has been softened and my mind has been changed over the past few years.

    If any of my ‘non believing’ neighbors were reluctant to embrace Jesus because they perceived christian’s as ‘harsh, unthinking, moral majority, right wingers’, I hope our conversations caused them to think again. MAYBE if I drive thoughfully enough, one of my neighbors might hurry to catch up and see Who is behind the wheel :>)

  11. David William Edwards November 28, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    Can anyone say “Y2K”? The fear mongering was unbelievable. I knew of many Christians that seemed to be hoping terrible things would happen in order to hasten the coming of the Lord. Please forgive us!

    David William Edwards

  12. Sara November 28, 2008 at 7:00 pm

    I thought both those letters were very well written. Satan loves nothing better than to see Christians divided…especially when it comes to the election of our nations highest office.

    Enjoy your blog. Thank you for the open minded discussions and not promoting the fear surrounding this election.

    Sara

  13. George Dunn November 30, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    I have been often criticized from the religious right and the left because I don’t get all that excited about politics or have much faith in politicians. Although I do pray and seek the mind of the Lord on “political matters” I long ago realized that when I surrendered to the Lord I became a part of a new world order and a citizen of heaven. My real commander and chief was now Jesus Christ.

    I believe that the real answer for America is the kingdom of God – the rule or reign of God over our hearts and lives. What a country, what a world this would be if indeed it was “in God we trusted” rather than in politicans, or Governments or even in the constitution or some human institution.

    I wonder what our government – our priorities – would be if Jesus Christ were truly Lord in Washington DC – if the mind of Christ was sought in the House, the Senate, the judiciary and the white house!?

    As a young man being groomed for a career in “politics”, I had the unfortunate or perhaps fortunate opportunity to see politics from the inside. I was so appalled at he greed, immorality, and ego’s run wild…the lack of personal convictions, morality, and true connectedness and concern for average working, tax paying people that it soured my stomach for politics. Sorry, if you find this offensive or perhaps shallow but none the less it is true. However, in Christ I found hope, not only for what ails me but also for mankind. No might,no military power, no economic power and no political candidate or candidates can cure what ails mankindnor can it stop the decay (entropy) in our society and in our world.

    I have personally seen God’s power to transform lives…even those of “despots” (like Noriega), corrupt political figures like Churck Colson and of course just ordinary despots…like me. That is where I place my trust.

    As for whether the idea that “God sets upon the throne” means that every elected or non-elected head of state, albeit it Obama or Hitler is ordained by God, is certainly not clear in scripture, at least not to me. So I’m left with trying to obey the Lord, render unto Caesar and pray for those leaders…especially that they might make him Lord of their lives instead of considering themselves as something or someone.

    I have never nor do not now believe that Democracy, Capitalism or Freedom are the answer to oppression and tyranny. It is only the government of God that is the solution. I do not believe that America is God’s blessed nation. For most of us, freedom has become a license to pursue consumerism, hedonistic pleasures – not the pursuit of God!

    May His Kingdom increase and may i decrease.

    Blessings

  14. George Dunn November 30, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    I have been often criticized from the religious right and the left because I don’t get all that excited about politics or have much faith in politicians. Although I do pray and seek the mind of the Lord on “political matters” I long ago realized that when I surrendered to the Lord I became a part of a new world order and a citizen of heaven. My real commander and chief was now Jesus Christ.

    I believe that the real answer for America is the kingdom of God – the rule or reign of God over our hearts and lives. What a country, what a world this would be if indeed it was “in God we trusted” rather than in politicans, or Governments or even in the constitution or some human institution.

    I wonder what our government – our priorities – would be if Jesus Christ were truly Lord in Washington DC – if the mind of Christ was sought in the House, the Senate, the judiciary and the white house!?

    As a young man being groomed for a career in “politics”, I had the unfortunate or perhaps fortunate opportunity to see politics from the inside. I was so appalled at he greed, immorality, and ego’s run wild…the lack of personal convictions, morality, and true connectedness and concern for average working, tax paying people that it soured my stomach for politics. Sorry, if you find this offensive or perhaps shallow but none the less it is true. However, in Christ I found hope, not only for what ails me but also for mankind. No might,no military power, no economic power and no political candidate or candidates can cure what ails mankindnor can it stop the decay (entropy) in our society and in our world.

    I have personally seen God’s power to transform lives…even those of “despots” (like Noriega), corrupt political figures like Churck Colson and of course just ordinary despots…like me. That is where I place my trust.

    As for whether the idea that “God sets upon the throne” means that every elected or non-elected head of state, albeit it Obama or Hitler is ordained by God, is certainly not clear in scripture, at least not to me. So I’m left with trying to obey the Lord, render unto Caesar and pray for those leaders…especially that they might make him Lord of their lives instead of considering themselves as something or someone.

    I have never nor do not now believe that Democracy, Capitalism or Freedom are the answer to oppression and tyranny. It is only the government of God that is the solution. I do not believe that America is God’s blessed nation. For most of us, freedom has become a license to pursue consumerism, hedonistic pleasures – not the pursuit of God!

    May His Kingdom increase and may i decrease.

    Blessings

  15. Steven W. Winters December 1, 2008 at 5:16 am

    Wayne,

    Although I’m not surprised you did not vote for McCain, I must admit I’m a little surprised you voted for Obama. I expected you to be more of a libertarian bent and would have thought you would go for someone more like Ron Paul, who has stated things like:

    “I don’t want to run your life. We all have different values. I wouldn’t know how to do it. I don’t have the authority under the Constitution, and I don’t have the moral right.”

    “I don’t want to run the economy. People run the economy in a free society.”

    “I don’t want to run the world…We don’t need to be imposing ourselves around the world.”

    Like Israel of old, modern day believers (and unbelievers) “want a king” who will take care of them and run their lives. Pastors or presidents, it is no different.

    Every four years, we hear the same: “This is the single most important election in our lifetime!!!” And the fear mongers (from either side) cry that the end of the world is coming if you don’t vote for one of the two “choices” of the duopoly.

    Rhetoric not withstanding, the reality is that there will be little difference between an Obama presidency than there would have been from a McCain administration. Government will continue grow in size and power over the individual. War, empire, and restrictions on civil liberties will continue to be “necessary to protect our freedom”. And the economy will continue to suffer, if not crash, due to both the expense of war, welfare programs (individual and corporate), and bad monetary policy.

    Historian Caroll Quigley made it clear that the power brokers intend for there to be no meaningful difference between the two: ‘The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can “throw the rascals out” at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy.’ [Pg. 1247-1248. Tragedy and Hope by Caroll Quigley]

    Ultimately, until people are willing to take back responsibility for their lives, and stop voting out of fear, nothing will change. Like those caught in the churchianity trap, people are fearful of experiencing real liberty that God intended for them…

  16. Steven W. Winters December 1, 2008 at 8:16 am

    Wayne,

    Although I’m not surprised you did not vote for McCain, I must admit I’m a little surprised you voted for Obama. I expected you to be more of a libertarian bent and would have thought you would go for someone more like Ron Paul, who has stated things like:

    “I don’t want to run your life. We all have different values. I wouldn’t know how to do it. I don’t have the authority under the Constitution, and I don’t have the moral right.”

    “I don’t want to run the economy. People run the economy in a free society.”

    “I don’t want to run the world…We don’t need to be imposing ourselves around the world.”

    Like Israel of old, modern day believers (and unbelievers) “want a king” who will take care of them and run their lives. Pastors or presidents, it is no different.

    Every four years, we hear the same: “This is the single most important election in our lifetime!!!” And the fear mongers (from either side) cry that the end of the world is coming if you don’t vote for one of the two “choices” of the duopoly.

    Rhetoric not withstanding, the reality is that there will be little difference between an Obama presidency than there would have been from a McCain administration. Government will continue grow in size and power over the individual. War, empire, and restrictions on civil liberties will continue to be “necessary to protect our freedom”. And the economy will continue to suffer, if not crash, due to both the expense of war, welfare programs (individual and corporate), and bad monetary policy.

    Historian Caroll Quigley made it clear that the power brokers intend for there to be no meaningful difference between the two: ‘The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can “throw the rascals out” at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy.’ [Pg. 1247-1248. Tragedy and Hope by Caroll Quigley]

    Ultimately, until people are willing to take back responsibility for their lives, and stop voting out of fear, nothing will change. Like those caught in the churchianity trap, people are fearful of experiencing real liberty that God intended for them…

  17. chet December 4, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Maybe a look at Daniel interpreting Nebuconezzer’s Dream in Daniel 4 will answer the question on the fact that God determines who rules the nations starting at verse 17 (Young’s Literal Translation)

    17by the decree of the sifters [is] the sentence, and by the saying of the holy ones the requirement, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.

    18`This dream I have seen, I king Nebuchadnezzar; and thou, O Belteshazzar, the interpretation tell, because that all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to cause me to know the interpretation, and thou [art] able, for the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee.

    19`Then Daniel, whose name [is] Belteshazzar, hath been astonished about one hour, and his thoughts do trouble him; the king hath answered and said, O Belteshazzar, let not the dream and its interpretation trouble thee. Belteshazzar hath answered and said, My lord, the dream — to those hating thee, and its interpretation — to thine enemies!

    20 The tree that thou hast seen, that hath become great and strong, and its height doth reach to the heavens, and its vision to all the land,

    21 and its leaves [are] fair, and its budding great, and food for all [is] in it, under it dwell doth the beast of the field, and on its boughs sit do the birds of the heavens.

    22`Thou it [is], O king, for thou hast become great and mighty, and thy greatness hath become great, and hath reached to the heavens, and thy dominion to the end of the earth;

    23 and that which the king hath seen — a sifter, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, and he hath said, Cut down the tree, and destroy it; but the stump of its roots leave in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens it is wet, and with the beast of the field [is] his portion, till that seven times pass over him.

    24`This [is] the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High it [is] that hath come against my lord the king:

    25 and they are driving thee away from men, and with the beast of the field is thy dwelling, and the herb as oxen they do cause thee to eat, and by the dew of the heavens they are wetting thee, and seven times do pass over thee, till that thou knowest that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it.

    26 And that which they said — to leave the stump of the roots of the tree; thy kingdom for thee abideth, after that thou knowest that the heavens are ruling.

    27`Therefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and thy sins by righteousness break off, and thy perversity by pitying the poor, lo, it is a lengthening of thine ease.

    28`All — hath come on Nebuchadnezzar the king.

    29`At the end of twelve months, on the palace of the kingdom of Babylon he hath been walking;

    30 the king hath answered and said, Is not this that great Babylon that I have built, for the house of the kingdom, in the might of my strength, and for the glory of mine honour?

    31`While the word is [in] the king’s mouth a voice from the heavens hath fallen: To thee they are saying: O Nebuchadnezzar the king, the kingdom hath passed from thee,

    32 and from men they are driving thee away, and with the beast of the field [is] thy dwelling, the herb as oxen they do cause thee to eat, and seven times do pass over thee, till that thou knowest that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it.

    33`In that hour the thing hath been fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar, and from men he is driven, and the herb as oxen he eateth, and by the dew of the heavens his body is wet, till that his hair as eagles’ hath become great, and his nails as birds.’

    34`And at the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, mine eyes to the heavens have lifted up, and mine understanding unto me returneth, and the Most High I have blessed, and the Age-during Living One I have praised and honoured, whose dominion [is] a dominion age-during, and His kingdom with generation and generation;

    35 and all who are dwelling on the earth as nothing are reckoned, and according to his will He is doing among the forces of the heavens and those dwelling on the earth, and there is none that doth clap with his hand, and saith to Him, What hast Thou done?

    36 `At that time my understanding doth return unto me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honour and my brightness doth return unto me, and to me my counsellors and my great men do seek, and over my kingdom I have been made right, and abundant greatness hath been added to me.

    37` Now, I, Nebuchadnezzar, am praising and exalting and honouring the King of the heavens, for all His works [are] truth, and His paths judgment, and those walking in pride He is able to humble.’

    Now does God ACTUALLY pull the lever on who to vote for? No, He doesn’t. However He does move individuals to vote the way they vote. This DOESN’T mean that the winning candidate has some special annointing. Simply put, they are where they are by the will of God. And since NOTHING has EVER gone against GOD’S will, can we truly REST in the fact that God is in TOTAL control. From the passages posted. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that his kingdom was corrupt and would be taken from him by God. As you can read, It DID Happen. Because Nebuchadnezzar thought that he made his kingdom, God removed his understanding and he was made to be like the beasts in the field. 2 verses that stand out are 17 & 35. 17 says that God rules among the kingdoms of men and gives is to whomever HE chooses. and sets up over them the LOWEST of all men. 35 says that as God does His will the inhabitants of the earth are considered NOTHING to Him as He does according to His will and that NONE can go against HIS intentions.

    So you see GOD is in TOTAL control. Look at Ephesians 1

    9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,

    10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth — in him;

    11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

    And HIS will is going to be done.

    Chet

  18. chet December 4, 2008 at 5:25 pm

    Maybe a look at Daniel interpreting Nebuconezzer’s Dream in Daniel 4 will answer the question on the fact that God determines who rules the nations starting at verse 17 (Young’s Literal Translation)

    17by the decree of the sifters [is] the sentence, and by the saying of the holy ones the requirement, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.

    18`This dream I have seen, I king Nebuchadnezzar; and thou, O Belteshazzar, the interpretation tell, because that all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to cause me to know the interpretation, and thou [art] able, for the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee.

    19`Then Daniel, whose name [is] Belteshazzar, hath been astonished about one hour, and his thoughts do trouble him; the king hath answered and said, O Belteshazzar, let not the dream and its interpretation trouble thee. Belteshazzar hath answered and said, My lord, the dream — to those hating thee, and its interpretation — to thine enemies!

    20 The tree that thou hast seen, that hath become great and strong, and its height doth reach to the heavens, and its vision to all the land,

    21 and its leaves [are] fair, and its budding great, and food for all [is] in it, under it dwell doth the beast of the field, and on its boughs sit do the birds of the heavens.

    22`Thou it [is], O king, for thou hast become great and mighty, and thy greatness hath become great, and hath reached to the heavens, and thy dominion to the end of the earth;

    23 and that which the king hath seen — a sifter, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, and he hath said, Cut down the tree, and destroy it; but the stump of its roots leave in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens it is wet, and with the beast of the field [is] his portion, till that seven times pass over him.

    24`This [is] the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High it [is] that hath come against my lord the king:

    25 and they are driving thee away from men, and with the beast of the field is thy dwelling, and the herb as oxen they do cause thee to eat, and by the dew of the heavens they are wetting thee, and seven times do pass over thee, till that thou knowest that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it.

    26 And that which they said — to leave the stump of the roots of the tree; thy kingdom for thee abideth, after that thou knowest that the heavens are ruling.

    27`Therefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and thy sins by righteousness break off, and thy perversity by pitying the poor, lo, it is a lengthening of thine ease.

    28`All — hath come on Nebuchadnezzar the king.

    29`At the end of twelve months, on the palace of the kingdom of Babylon he hath been walking;

    30 the king hath answered and said, Is not this that great Babylon that I have built, for the house of the kingdom, in the might of my strength, and for the glory of mine honour?

    31`While the word is [in] the king’s mouth a voice from the heavens hath fallen: To thee they are saying: O Nebuchadnezzar the king, the kingdom hath passed from thee,

    32 and from men they are driving thee away, and with the beast of the field [is] thy dwelling, the herb as oxen they do cause thee to eat, and seven times do pass over thee, till that thou knowest that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it.

    33`In that hour the thing hath been fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar, and from men he is driven, and the herb as oxen he eateth, and by the dew of the heavens his body is wet, till that his hair as eagles’ hath become great, and his nails as birds.’

    34`And at the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, mine eyes to the heavens have lifted up, and mine understanding unto me returneth, and the Most High I have blessed, and the Age-during Living One I have praised and honoured, whose dominion [is] a dominion age-during, and His kingdom with generation and generation;

    35 and all who are dwelling on the earth as nothing are reckoned, and according to his will He is doing among the forces of the heavens and those dwelling on the earth, and there is none that doth clap with his hand, and saith to Him, What hast Thou done?

    36 `At that time my understanding doth return unto me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honour and my brightness doth return unto me, and to me my counsellors and my great men do seek, and over my kingdom I have been made right, and abundant greatness hath been added to me.

    37` Now, I, Nebuchadnezzar, am praising and exalting and honouring the King of the heavens, for all His works [are] truth, and His paths judgment, and those walking in pride He is able to humble.’

    Now does God ACTUALLY pull the lever on who to vote for? No, He doesn’t. However He does move individuals to vote the way they vote. This DOESN’T mean that the winning candidate has some special annointing. Simply put, they are where they are by the will of God. And since NOTHING has EVER gone against GOD’S will, can we truly REST in the fact that God is in TOTAL control. From the passages posted. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that his kingdom was corrupt and would be taken from him by God. As you can read, It DID Happen. Because Nebuchadnezzar thought that he made his kingdom, God removed his understanding and he was made to be like the beasts in the field. 2 verses that stand out are 17 & 35. 17 says that God rules among the kingdoms of men and gives is to whomever HE chooses. and sets up over them the LOWEST of all men. 35 says that as God does His will the inhabitants of the earth are considered NOTHING to Him as He does according to His will and that NONE can go against HIS intentions.

    So you see GOD is in TOTAL control. Look at Ephesians 1

    9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,

    10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth — in him;

    11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

    And HIS will is going to be done.

    Chet

  19. Melody December 8, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    I still do not understand how anyone could have voted for Obama. The man stands for everything that our Constitution is against and he is going to ruin our Country. I do not believe that America will ever recover from the Obama presidency and I’m sick because we’re going to end up a third-world country. People bought into Obama’s “change” idea without asking what change he’s going to bring. When we all end up in prison for being Christians, perhaps I’ll be able to thanks every one of you who voted for a man with no morals.

    I just somehow thought that Wayne, being as spiritually attuned as he is, would see through a puppet of the angel of light. Our country is being put into the hands of an admitted Muslim, who is quite possibly demon possessed; do not be surprised when he starts attacking Christians.

  20. Melody December 8, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    I still do not understand how anyone could have voted for Obama. The man stands for everything that our Constitution is against and he is going to ruin our Country. I do not believe that America will ever recover from the Obama presidency and I’m sick because we’re going to end up a third-world country. People bought into Obama’s “change” idea without asking what change he’s going to bring. When we all end up in prison for being Christians, perhaps I’ll be able to thanks every one of you who voted for a man with no morals.

    I just somehow thought that Wayne, being as spiritually attuned as he is, would see through a puppet of the angel of light. Our country is being put into the hands of an admitted Muslim, who is quite possibly demon possessed; do not be surprised when he starts attacking Christians.

  21. Benjamin Coker December 9, 2008 at 3:38 am

    I am predicting that Obama will be Clinton III as far as his policy is concerned. I was initially afraid that he was go to be even more extremely liberal with his talks about domestic works programs and a new homeland security force, which I think he will still institute to combat what is going to be an obscene explosion in unemployment. Looking at it objectively why would he be enlisting Hillary as Sec. of State after the arguments they had over foreign policy (slash and burn style) unless he was just saying whatever was necessary to be elected? He is a liberal politician and that means his job is to deliver the “left” just as Bush delivered the “right” (read betray). His job is to drag us closer to the event prophesied in Psalm 2 by further eating into the Constitution and sovereignty of the United States just as Bush did. Expect to see the Treaty of the Sea’s to be signed within the first two years of his Presidency. On the bright side I think he was in fact lying to Planned Parenthood when he promised them an “Abortion on Demand” law within the first weeks of his administration.

    This country is morally and fiscally bankrupt. God loves us and he’s been patient with us but he does eventually move sovereignly to put an end to murder, corruption and theft. (Psalm 2 again) The very fact that this nation has grown so callous towards God (and no I’m not talking about the church on the corner) and his requirements (like killing the unborn) tells me that it has to end soon. (Heb 10:29-31) “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Why does a loving God “recompense”? Because He is a loving God and is gracious towards even the unbeliever. He won’t let their iniquity heap up too high.

    A good example of this is when God told Abram that he would inherit Canaan conditionally (Gen 15:16) “But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” Based on what I understand about Father he is longsuffering but that should not be mistaken for approval. Grace is wonderful but the wages of sin ARE still death. (Rom 6:23) “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    I think that the “organized” church is ineffectual at best on most days, political dominionism makes me ill and I definitely agree that we cannot legislate or force morality. I still get concerned when I see people attack the politics of the brick and mortar church when they seem to have a secular socialist agenda, even if it is shrouded in “Christian-ese”. Lets not forget that there is coming a day when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, when every enemy shall be placed under His feet (and yes probably people too) and that He is going to rule with a rod of iron. The Bible says that we are ALL going to be baptized with fire (1Co 3:11-15) “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

    Jesus Christ himself will do the burning as he did for Shadrach, Meshech and Abendago, (Mat 3:11-12) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    I pray for Obama, that he’ll repent, that he’ll become just and hear the Father and I pray for his safety and sanity. I know that God loves him and has set him in as the leader of this country. I also know that Barrack is playing with that same fire if he thinks that causing the murder of millions of babies around the world will pass without consequence before the throne of a merciful and just God.

  22. Benjamin Coker December 9, 2008 at 6:38 am

    I am predicting that Obama will be Clinton III as far as his policy is concerned. I was initially afraid that he was go to be even more extremely liberal with his talks about domestic works programs and a new homeland security force, which I think he will still institute to combat what is going to be an obscene explosion in unemployment. Looking at it objectively why would he be enlisting Hillary as Sec. of State after the arguments they had over foreign policy (slash and burn style) unless he was just saying whatever was necessary to be elected? He is a liberal politician and that means his job is to deliver the “left” just as Bush delivered the “right” (read betray). His job is to drag us closer to the event prophesied in Psalm 2 by further eating into the Constitution and sovereignty of the United States just as Bush did. Expect to see the Treaty of the Sea’s to be signed within the first two years of his Presidency. On the bright side I think he was in fact lying to Planned Parenthood when he promised them an “Abortion on Demand” law within the first weeks of his administration.

    This country is morally and fiscally bankrupt. God loves us and he’s been patient with us but he does eventually move sovereignly to put an end to murder, corruption and theft. (Psalm 2 again) The very fact that this nation has grown so callous towards God (and no I’m not talking about the church on the corner) and his requirements (like killing the unborn) tells me that it has to end soon. (Heb 10:29-31) “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Why does a loving God “recompense”? Because He is a loving God and is gracious towards even the unbeliever. He won’t let their iniquity heap up too high.

    A good example of this is when God told Abram that he would inherit Canaan conditionally (Gen 15:16) “But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” Based on what I understand about Father he is longsuffering but that should not be mistaken for approval. Grace is wonderful but the wages of sin ARE still death. (Rom 6:23) “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    I think that the “organized” church is ineffectual at best on most days, political dominionism makes me ill and I definitely agree that we cannot legislate or force morality. I still get concerned when I see people attack the politics of the brick and mortar church when they seem to have a secular socialist agenda, even if it is shrouded in “Christian-ese”. Lets not forget that there is coming a day when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, when every enemy shall be placed under His feet (and yes probably people too) and that He is going to rule with a rod of iron. The Bible says that we are ALL going to be baptized with fire (1Co 3:11-15) “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

    Jesus Christ himself will do the burning as he did for Shadrach, Meshech and Abendago, (Mat 3:11-12) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    I pray for Obama, that he’ll repent, that he’ll become just and hear the Father and I pray for his safety and sanity. I know that God loves him and has set him in as the leader of this country. I also know that Barrack is playing with that same fire if he thinks that causing the murder of millions of babies around the world will pass without consequence before the throne of a merciful and just God.

  23. Rich December 9, 2008 at 10:40 am

    Melody-

    “an admitted Muslim, who is quite possibly demon possessed”

    There is an old command that says not to ‘bear false witness’…think about it sister…I have said untrue emotion driven things about people too, later to feel real bad when I saw how it hurt them.

  24. Rich December 9, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    Melody-

    “an admitted Muslim, who is quite possibly demon possessed”

    There is an old command that says not to ‘bear false witness’…think about it sister…I have said untrue emotion driven things about people too, later to feel real bad when I saw how it hurt them.

  25. Melody December 9, 2008 at 5:16 pm

    Rich,

    Thank you for your concern, but what I said was neither emotion-driven, nor bearing false witness.

    Melody

  26. Melody December 9, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Rich,

    Thank you for your concern, but what I said was neither emotion-driven, nor bearing false witness.

    Melody

  27. Jennie December 9, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    After reading the first letter Wayne posted on this blog entry, I guess what is sad to me is that in our current “Christian” subculture, it takes bravery to tell other “Christians” that you voted for Obama. We rarely allow others freedom of thought or difference of opinion, especially regarding politics in an election year. It’s mostly about group-think mentality. Sure, some people want to think that they are free-thinkers, out of the box, recovering from legalism, yadda, yadda. But just wait until you cross whatever happens to be their particular line in the sand.

    Melody: not every email forward you receive is based on fact, honey. And may I suggest psyllium husks – I think they might be helpful to you, dear.

  28. Jennie December 10, 2008 at 12:12 am

    After reading the first letter Wayne posted on this blog entry, I guess what is sad to me is that in our current “Christian” subculture, it takes bravery to tell other “Christians” that you voted for Obama. We rarely allow others freedom of thought or difference of opinion, especially regarding politics in an election year. It’s mostly about group-think mentality. Sure, some people want to think that they are free-thinkers, out of the box, recovering from legalism, yadda, yadda. But just wait until you cross whatever happens to be their particular line in the sand.

    Melody: not every email forward you receive is based on fact, honey. And may I suggest psyllium husks – I think they might be helpful to you, dear.

  29. Rich December 10, 2008 at 8:42 am

    Melody-
    Thank you for writing again, I have been concerned since I wrote yesterday about how you would take what I said….after all, we don’t know each other and for me to offer correction over the internet to someone I don’t know was out of line, I’m sincerely sorry for doing so, that was disrespectful of me. Let’s look at Jesus now, we have nothing to fear and everything to look forward to, He’s is the beginning and the end. Rich

  30. Rich December 10, 2008 at 11:42 am

    Melody-
    Thank you for writing again, I have been concerned since I wrote yesterday about how you would take what I said….after all, we don’t know each other and for me to offer correction over the internet to someone I don’t know was out of line, I’m sincerely sorry for doing so, that was disrespectful of me. Let’s look at Jesus now, we have nothing to fear and everything to look forward to, He’s is the beginning and the end. Rich

  31. kbcrazy December 11, 2008 at 10:51 am

    Pray for those who are in leadership is what the Bible tells us all to do, not rant and rave about what WE think is going on. Let’s not let all this uproar divide us as followers of Christ. Everyone has their own will and God will not come in and change it to what He thinks it should be. He is ever the Gentleman when it comes to those things. His Will will be done, but I think that is regarding how this world will come to an end of things as we know it, not so much as to how it gets there. Things happen that aren’t His Will all the time, so we can’t say that just because Obama got elected that it is God’s Will. No matter who gets elected, it is the peoples choice not Gods. Live quiet, peaceable lives until He comes is the instruction we are given.

  32. kbcrazy December 11, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    Pray for those who are in leadership is what the Bible tells us all to do, not rant and rave about what WE think is going on. Let’s not let all this uproar divide us as followers of Christ. Everyone has their own will and God will not come in and change it to what He thinks it should be. He is ever the Gentleman when it comes to those things. His Will will be done, but I think that is regarding how this world will come to an end of things as we know it, not so much as to how it gets there. Things happen that aren’t His Will all the time, so we can’t say that just because Obama got elected that it is God’s Will. No matter who gets elected, it is the peoples choice not Gods. Live quiet, peaceable lives until He comes is the instruction we are given.

  33. Benjamin Coker January 25, 2009 at 2:14 am

    Well, three days in and Obama’s already setting the wheels in motion to kill babies and exploit them for medical research, imagine that. Who could have seen that coming? I now know more fully why the saints will be cheering when they see Babylon fall. I hope that Christ can get this thing turned around and get a hold of the President’s heart I hope he can change this country and make us less then the bloodthirsty self-seeking monsters that we are, but I’m beginning to start to have serious doubts. Now I really need to consider how I can pay less money into a government that will use that money to murder babies.

    (BTW how is it that we can AFFORD to pay for overseas abortions and fund embryonic stem cell research given our current financial situation in this country, I think it is saying something about Obama’s priorities, don’t you?)

  34. Benjamin Coker January 25, 2009 at 5:14 am

    Well, three days in and Obama’s already setting the wheels in motion to kill babies and exploit them for medical research, imagine that. Who could have seen that coming? I now know more fully why the saints will be cheering when they see Babylon fall. I hope that Christ can get this thing turned around and get a hold of the President’s heart I hope he can change this country and make us less then the bloodthirsty self-seeking monsters that we are, but I’m beginning to start to have serious doubts. Now I really need to consider how I can pay less money into a government that will use that money to murder babies.

    (BTW how is it that we can AFFORD to pay for overseas abortions and fund embryonic stem cell research given our current financial situation in this country, I think it is saying something about Obama’s priorities, don’t you?)

  35. Sandy Sandlin February 4, 2009 at 5:27 am

    Politics in America–interesting to say the least. Have been on both sides of the aisle. Currently, I don’t know where I stand. I don’t have enough money to be a republican, and not enough hypocrisy to be a democrat–LOL.. How about a new party called the Constituitonal and Common Sense Party???
    Or maybe we need to realize that Jesus and the NT writers spent very little time and effort addressing national or political issues (and this was under Roman rule). Living loved means loving all people of all parties and being able to rise above it all.
    Sandy

  36. Sandy Sandlin February 4, 2009 at 8:27 am

    Politics in America–interesting to say the least. Have been on both sides of the aisle. Currently, I don’t know where I stand. I don’t have enough money to be a republican, and not enough hypocrisy to be a democrat–LOL.. How about a new party called the Constituitonal and Common Sense Party???
    Or maybe we need to realize that Jesus and the NT writers spent very little time and effort addressing national or political issues (and this was under Roman rule). Living loved means loving all people of all parties and being able to rise above it all.
    Sandy

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